September 11, 2009
BNP on BBC: Mapping the Debate
I’ve had a little time to think about the whole “BNP on the BBC” debate, and have noticed that there’s an awful lot of confusion about what exactly the issues in play are. Partly, this is just because the issues are complicated, and competing demands are made on competing considerations. But I thought it would be useful to try and map some of the faultlines of the debate, partly to sort out my own confusions, but also (somewhat optimistically) to try and influence the wider discourse by flagging ways to avoid errors and confusions when discussing this topic.
Let’s start by taking one faultline in the debate: the extent to which it is about free speech. Or, more precisely, the extent to which the debate about Griffin appearing on the BBC is in fact not to do with free speech. To explore and explain this faultline, let’s consider the debate between those who think that other political groupings should share the platform with the BNP, and those who advocate a “no-platform” policy (because that’s where the free speech arguments usually get chucked around).
The first thing to note is that actually this debate does not – as Dave Semple has been keen and correct to stress – need to be a debate about free speech, at all. It is not necessarily the case that the no-platform side wants to suppress Griffin’s right to espouse his views, and that by contrast the yes-platform side is diametrically and simplistically opposed in wanting to allow him to espouse his views. This is because the no-platformers can consistently say that it is fine for Griffin (or whoever) to spout racist drivel to his heart’s content and in public – but that other groups should not share the platform when he does so (e.g. for fear that it may legitimise his views and strengthen his public appeal).
Of course some no-platformers may take a different stance. They may advocate a no-platform policy and also be against free speech being extended to Griffin. They might say: “nobody should share a platform with Griffin, for that endorses and strengthens him, and furthermore Griffin should not be allowed to speak in the first place”. But that’s a distinct position, and not all no-platformers are committed to it.
So we have (at least) three positions in this debate: 1) those who think Griffin should be allowed to speak and that other political groupings should share the platform when he does; 2) those who think Griffin should be allowed to speak but that others should not share the platform when he does; and 3) those who think that Griffin should not be allowed to speak but that if he is then others should not share the platform when he does.
Notice that it is thus quite possible for “no platformers” to disagree with “share the platform” advocates on grounds which have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Griffin should be allowed to speak freely (because both agree that he should). This will be the case so long as the debate exists between those from groups 1) and 2) only. Free speech issues only need arise if those from group 3) enter the mix. So it should now be obvious that it is wrong and lazy to dismiss no-platform advocates as being “anti-free speech”. It is quite possible – and consistent – to favour a no-platform policy whilst supporting Griffin (or whoever’s) right to free speech.
That’s one faultline identified and flagged. It directly leads to another: the debate about tactics.
Let’s focus on the arguments between groups 1) and 2) identified above: given that both agree Griffin should be allowed to speak, their disagreement arises as to whether others should share the platform when he does. At this point, (assuming, which seems sensible, that all members of 1) and 2) are opposed to the BNP becoming more successful) the debate between the two camps becomes one about tactics. That is, what is the best response which will ensure the maximum damage/least progress to the BNP’s cause?
One side says, roughly, that other groups sharing the platform with Griffin will convey legitimacy, the oxygen of publicity and mainstream acceptance, thus boosting the BNP’s chances of success. The other says, roughly, that the best way to stop the BNP is to expose them as nasty fascists for all to behold, and that the best way of doing this is to engage with them publicly in the forum of debate. And, of course, counterarguments are in turn made: the no-platformers may claim that debate is futile because Griffin will subvert it through sound-bite politics and taking advantage of discredited MPs’ reputations to score cheap points; the pro-platformers may argue back that refusing to share Griffin’s platform is a snub to the 900,000 BNP voters who are likely to cause resentment, fuel BNP myths about outsider persecution, and entrench their support. Constructed this way, the argument is a straightforward empirical one about what is most likely to work in efforts to prevent Griffin being successful, with the two different sides coming to different conclusions.
Yet, as this argument about tactics rages, it is helpful to identify spanners (or perhaps more kindly, “variables”) that are frequently thrown into the works, with the effect of changing the direction of focus of the debate, but which may go un-noticed and lead to confusion about who is saying what and why.
The first spanner (or “variable”) is the question of the format of the platform being given to the BNP, and how the specific nature of the format will impact upon the debate. I’ve already commented that Question Time in particular is a very bad format to opt for if you believe debate can harm the BNP – for the simple reason that Question Time is not a genuine debate show. This has an important consequence: if the only platform the BNP is being offered is Question Time, it may be entirely reasonable for those who believe the best way to beat the BNP is to debate them to adopt a no platform policy on this occasion. Why? Because it may be decided that, on balance, Question Time offers a format which rules out debate, and so tactically the best way to block the BNP cause in this case is to advocate no platform – with the caveat that, if a better format were offered allowing real debate, then the no-platform position would be abandoned. Thus, the nuances of the situation according to the actual context experienced are very important if we are going to get clear on who is arguing for what, and why, and how they may legitimately change their position(s).
The second spanner (and this one really is just a spanner) to be aware of is the (ab)use of arguments from J.S. Mill –something which I personally have been guilty of in the past, I will admit. For there is a tendency to lob into arguments phrases like “Mill showed that debate is the best way to expose a pernicious opinion and to strengthen a desirable one”, as a sort of intellectual hand grenade. This is generally counter-productive and leads to confusion and mess.
This is because whilst it is true at some basic level that Mill did argue that free and rigorous debate tends to kill-off pernicious as well as false opinion (which we should note are two different things…and be aware of how confusing the two may cause problems), whilst strengthening desirable and true positions, two points must be noted about his argument as laid out in On Liberty.
Firstly, it is to a considerable extent an argument about what the state should use its power for: in the case of suppressing opinions which are pernicious, even if based on falsehood, Mill thinks state efforts to do so will backfire and fail, or at least not be as successful as allowing open debate. But because Mill is primarily pre-occupied with the use of state power, his arguments may thus be operating at a general state level: that debate as a whole when tolerated as a continuous government policy tends to eradicate falsehood and pernicious opinion, even if it doesn’t do so on each individual occasion. It is not automatically clear that arguments about what governments should allow – i.e. free expression which facilitates debate which is the best way to expose pernicious opinions and falsehoods (notice the complexity of this position) – translate at all cleanly into debates about what we, as individuals and organisations, should do once the government has granted our enemies the right to speak (and the BBC has offered them a platform).
It seems to me quite consistent for somebody to say: “Mill was right that the state should allow free expression of all, because generally this leads to open debate which defeats pernicious opinion and untruth. However, I as an individual do not believe the right thing to do is to share a platform with the BNP, and will lobby groups I support not to share that platform. This isn’t because I’m “anti-debate”, but rather because I think Mill’s arguments apply best not at the level of individual debates in meeting halls between speakers, but at the level of a society-wide conversation. In this sense, advocating no-platform is a form of debate with wider society – it operates at a meta-level above that of individual head-to-head discussions by appealing to the general population by way of example, yet which is enabled by a government allowing of all to speak freely (though not necessarily directly to each other, nor at exactly the same time).” Insofar as one finds that position at least prima-facie plausible – and I do – it follows that being no-platform need not be anti-debate, even in the Millian sense. It just depends on which level you interpret Mill’s dictum that free speech and corresponding vigorous debate operate best.
Secondly, let’s suppose that Mill’s arguments about free and public debate being the best defeater of untruth and pernicious opinion is true not just at a society-wide or “meta” level, but also (or possibly, instead) at the level of individual debates: that the best way of exposing the BNP (for example) is to sit Griffin down and rake him over intellectual hot coals with a TV audience tuned in. I happen to read Mill as believing that this is the best way to expose false and pernicious opinion, and also I personally find it convincing: I think a real debate in which Griffin is exposed as a scumbag Nazi (or forced into incoherent evasion) would be a fantastic way to do him and the BNP harm.
But then, two things to notice here: the argument has shifted back to the faultline about tactics – the question of whether debating Griffin live on TV will do him more harm than good is still the core issue, but one side (my side) is claiming that debate can work best (if properly pursued). The fact that Mill (in my opinion) shared my view doesn’t therefore add anything to the empirical question about which tactics in fact work best – it simply serves to argue from authority in an attempt to intellectual brow-beat opponents. And furthermore, because the debate has shifted back to one about tactics, it is again vulnerable to the spanner (or variable) of the format the “debate” is taking place in: if it’s Question Time, then the Millian arguments about debate and intellectual hot coals go out of the window as the audience of hyperactive seals start their inane clapping.
As a result, lobbing Mill hand-grenades into the debate thus looks rather pointless as it either cannot be used to aid either side without substantially more argument than the hand-grenade method allows (because both the no- and the yes-platform tribes can consistently claim to be faithful to Million dictums about debate, depending upon the level being focused upon) or simply adds nothing to the discussion (because the debate has shifted back to tactics, and Mill is just being used as an authority to beat other people up with).
Given all of the above, I thus propose the following guidelines when debating the BNP platform/no-platform issue, or even just trying to understand the debate as it happens:
- Don’t assume the debate is a simple, straightforward one about “free speech”. Free speech is certainly likely to be involved, but it’s not going to be a basic case of one side being “for” and the other “against” – not least because there may be more than two sides.
- As a consequence the debate may well be an empirical one about tactics; what’s the best way to harm the BNP cause? If so, contextualising factors such as what kind of a platform is being offered may need to be taken into account, and this should affect one’s judgement of the likelihood of debate even being possible, ahead of arguments as to whether debate can work or not, and to what extent.
- If one does want to discuss the merits of debate, lazy appeals to J.S Mill are likely to be crass, oversimplified and unhelpful. Furthermore, they do not straightforwardly lend themselves just to one side, despite often appearing – and being deployed – as though they do. Mill hand-grenades should be discouraged, and their use treated with scepticism.
In sum: the issue is bloody complicated, but those are some ways to think about how the debate plays out.
One final thought, though: this map of the debate leans towards the idea that it’s mostly an empirical argument between those who think debating Griffin and the BNP head-to-head will outweigh any benefits they may receive from publicity, versus those who think it won’t. But given that it may ultimately be an empirical question, the entire argument may therefore be basically irresolvable until one tactic is consistently tried and seen to either fail or succeed. However, given the stakes in play, neither side is likely to be willing to let the other have a monopoly of the scientific-method in attempting to discovering what works (or doesn’t) in tackling the rise of the Britain’s fascists. Progress in this argument may be a necessarily elusive beast
So for what it’s worth: debate works – Mill said so!



Rob said,
September 11, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I think that there’s a fourth position that is probably fairly common – that Griffin shouldn’t be allowed on QT, but if he is then others have a duty to appear alongside him in order to ‘challenge his views’ (I give this scare-quotes simply because I doubt the ability of the average front-bench politician to challenge anything effectively, even if the possibility of Griffin being exposed as vile scum remains theoretically possible). I suspect that many people hold a soft version of this view, that they’d much rather Griffin wasn’t on TV (or, for that matter, on Earth at all) but since he is, we’ve just got to deal with it.
Dave Semple said,
September 11, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I agree with Rob as to the abilities of our politicians, and in one of my more recent articles I also contend that rational argument won’t win the day anyway.
I still like the image of the seals though, Paul. It’ll be all I can think about next time I watch QT.
Rob said,
September 11, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I think it’s a little quick to say that the no-platform view – which is mine – is not one about freedom of speech. The idea of the no-platform view is to get everyone else to use their freedom of association to deny Griffin or other members of the BNP in their capacity as members of the BNP as many opportunities as possible to speak in public by ensuring that anyone who offers him a platform will be offered a platform with them alone, which is a much less enticing proposition, presumably. There are clearly other cases where such use of a right to freely associate would count a worrying limit at least on an effective freedom of some sort or other (just as there are clearly cases where it doesn’t). I agree that it’s an issue about tactics, but I don’t think that means there are no as it were moral questions about it.
guy herbert said,
September 12, 2009 at 6:10 pm
There are also some other reasons for adopting a no-platform position that are poitical strategy rather than moral position.
Some parties actually have quite similar positions to the BNP on some subjects, or as weak ground for the positions they do hold, and debating the BNP for them is likely to reinforce its reputation by decreasing their relative credibility than by a halo of authority acquired by association with them. This plausibly applies to the Labour Party and the Greens and both UKIP and the Tories are inclined to use similar language on immigration. Extremely restrictive attitudes to immigration are the currency of mainstream poltics, and it is quite hard for mainstreamers in populist debate to explain why they are against permitting someone who entered the country 10 years ago to stay if they would ban him from coming here today.
At least one of the strongest advocates of no-platform, the SWP in various guises, uses no platform as a rallying point in itself, and seeks to build a following based on confronting fascism, rather than advocating its own positions.
My problem with all of the discussion from whatever angle is this: All parties have some policies that I think are stupid and evil, and most appear to be strongly motivated by tribal hatreds. The BNP are not unique in being wrong about nearly everything. It seems to me that racism is an arbitrary shibboleth to declare them unacceptable alongside all the others.
guy herbert said,
September 12, 2009 at 6:12 pm
That “against” in paragraph two should be “for”, of course.
Surrender « The Nation of Duncan said,
September 13, 2009 at 6:45 pm
[...] (If you’re interested in that subject, I’m not, see Phil at AVPS and Paul at Bad Conscience here and then here). [...]
Paul said,
September 14, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Rob @ 1
Yes, that probably is another distinct position…though I suspect it’s related to the position of those who believe Griffin (or whoever) should be debated because that can be the best way to beat him. After all, would you still think there was a duty to appear alongside Griffin if you also thought that it was guaranteed to help him? Perhaps (hence it can still be a distinct position), but I think most people who go down this duty route will also think that debating Griffin has practical benefits in terms of successfuly stopping him.
Rob @ 3
certainly there are moral questions about it, alongside the tactics…but I’m not sure why you’ve written that no platform is not necessarily not about freedom of speech, given the example you’ve used. That is: yes, using freedom of association to advocate no-platform can encourage others not to bother to invite Griffin…but how is that affecting Griffin’s freedom of speech? He can still says what he wants…the difference is that if the no-platform campaign is successful, Griffin will have no platform from which to speak.
I suppose I see why that has *something* to do with freedom of speech…but surely that’s about the requisite capacities for freedom of speech which is likely to have significant consequences, not about actually allowing/suppressing freedom of speech itself. No?
Guy,
I sympathise with some of what you are saying…but is it not going too far to say that it is utterly *arbitrary* to advocate banning the BNP “because they are racist”? Because surely it goes further than that: it is because they stand in direct line of a tradition that when it gained power waged international war and more importantly murdered 6 million people on the grounds of race (and mental disability, sexuality etc). I think UKIP and elements of the Tory party are effectively racist…but they are a long, long way from the BNP.
I’m not sure its helpful or particularly meaningful to say that the BNP are being “arbitrarily” excluded “because they are racist”. It looks a lot more complicated to me.
Rob said,
September 14, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Well, think of it like this. No-platform involves people using their freedom of association to prevent someone else from being given opportunities to speak in public. Compare that with boycotts, which are presumably similarly policies involving people using their freedom of association to prevent others from using their freedoms in particular ways. I take it that if I risk losing my livelihood for some act of speech, we would at least want to say something about my freedom of speech being restricted, even if there was no formal legal ban on me speaking. Apart from anything else, denying that boycotts have that effect would presumably deny that parallel cases of threatening would have similar effects on liberty. That seems to show that uses of freedom of association, even perfectly permissible uses of freedom of association, can restrict the liberties of others even if they don’t amount to legal or in any way formal restrictions. Given that that’s the case, there is at least the possibility that no-platform restricts Griffin’s freedom of speech (in a way I think is perfectly permissible, if it indeed does) – which is all I was trying to show, since I was only disagreeing that it’s definitely not a question of free speech. I suppose one reason for stressing this is that it seems in general a mistake by people on the left to agree that in the absence of formal legal barriers to a given named liberty, that liberty is secured. The willingness of others and the costs they impose on doing so to provide goods I need to exercise liberties matters.
Paul said,
September 14, 2009 at 9:32 pm
OK Rob, I think I see what’s going on here.
It helps if we delineate two approaches to “freedom of speech”.
Approach 1: freedom of speech in the context of what the state allows – i.e. does the state use force (or the law and the threat of force) to prevent a person/persons from speaking?
Approach 2: what we might term “the capabilities” approach to free speech: what capabilities – including resources, audience, chance to be heard etc – does an individual need in order for their freedmo of speech to be *meaningful*
I was predominantly thinking about Approach 1. On this approach, it’s clear that no platformers need not be saying anything at all about Griffin’s free speech: they could both be completely happy with the state not banning Griffin from speaking (in public, cet par, etc etc) yet disagree about whether or not to share the platform.
Of course, on your “capabilities” approach, things are much more complex: on this model, the free use of liberties by others can restrict the capability of others to (meaningfully) exercise their liberties. This is a consequence of the fact that liberties (like – or perhaps because – rights, can come into conflict, and frequently do). On this approach, if no-platform results in Griffin losing or being denied the capabilities required for (meaningful) freedom of speech, then his free speech has indeed been affected.
Those both seem like viable approaches. I guess which one we are focused on depends upon whether we are preoccupied more or less with the role of the state when discussing free speech. Yes?
(I will get back to your Rawls comment, i promise, just give me time….)
Rob said,
September 16, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I suppose I’m just a bit sceptical about the helpfulness of the distinction between your two approaches, not least because one obvious way to investigate which liberties people can make use of is to look at which liberties other people are granted under law. And then there’s the issue that people making use of liberties granted under law to limit other peoples’ use of liberties are ultimately being protected by the state.
james carlisle said,
February 18, 2010 at 8:46 am
Most people dont have the intelligence to deal with the bnp,infact if NG dos appear he will mask .this ,by appearing to be stupid ,a wise man acts the fool,another thing he will do ,will be to be deliberately outrageous, this will lead to the chatter class thinking they have one over him. he will hold on to his veiws which to the stupid appear to be one off nazism,this is a great mistake,as a BNPsupporter i could tell you what they are really, doing, but i wont, stupidity is the most desirable, quality in ones enemys.one of the great truth of this earth is that you can have people that are educated,what we would call the intelligent stupid,they lack street smart.better to let them fall flat on their face,the panel will not consist of the ORWELLS, PLATOS, SOCRATIES, sadly,lets see if you under stand answer these two questions if you have the brains of, BNP
WHAT IS THE NATURE OF TRUTH
WERE IS THE CENTER OF THE EARTH..
IF YOU CAN ANSWER THESE ,YOU WILL GRASP THE NATURE OF THE BNP,ONLY 10% OF YOU WILL